Episode 33
Rich Chance talks about negotiating techniques, following his own lead and getting the right kind of therapy
Personal stories of inspiration from music industry professionals.
In this episode, Gareth chats with composer, songwriter and musician Rich Chance about negotiating techniques, following his own lead and getting the right kind of therapy.
Host: Gareth Davies
Produced by The Sound Boutique
Transcript
Gareth (3): Welcome to the music room.
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:This time in the music room.
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:Rich Chance: I was sort of transfixed
by that on vinyl very early on,
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:and the fact that my dad was on the
cover, it's almost set, set things
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:in motion in a, in a, you know, sort
of hero's journey sort of fashion.
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:It's like, well, your father is on
the cover of this record, therefore
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:you must be on the cover of a record,.
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:Gareth (2): Hello, and welcome to the
Music Room, the show for music creators,
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:where I chat with guests working in the
music industry to find out more about
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:them and their beginnings in music.
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:And stick around
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:as I ask all of my guests to leave an
item and a piece of advice in the Music
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:Room for you to find, what could they be?
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:Anyway.
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:Today's guest is composer,
songwriter and musician, Rich
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:Chance who has new music out.
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:Rich will be talking about the twists
and turns of his career and the
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:effects those twists and turns and
social media had on his mental health.
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:I've popped links to Rich's
stuff in the show notes.
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:So I urge you to go and take a listen,
follow his updates on the socials.
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:He's such a nice guy.
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:And he and I have been trying to get
coffee in the diary most of this year.
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:So when we finally met albeit
virtually, I thought it would
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:be a good idea to hit record.
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:By the way talking of links, you
can find all the links to everything
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:Music Room at musicroom.community.
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:That includes things like the podcast
website with all the podcast apps;
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:ways to support the show with a
one-off tip; the newsletter; the lovely
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:Facebook group; Instagram; merch.
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:Yes merch go and take a look.
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:Uh, and there's a link for me
there too, as I do all this myself
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:and also for other podcasts.
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:So there are links to my stuff
to at musicroom.community.
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:And thank you for listening.
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:It would be a bit pointless making
this show if no one listened to it.
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:So thank you for keeping
this train on the tracks.
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:I really do appreciate it.
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:Right before we head into the
music room to chat with Rich
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:here are some music stories.
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:From moviemaker.com composer and
Music Room guest Segun Akinola had
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:never heard the story of Milli Vanilli
when he was approached to score
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:the biopic Girl You Know It's True.
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:He was too young to remember how...
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:hang on, feeling old.
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:Uh, in the late eighties two exceptionally
good looking dancer models, named Fab
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:Morvan and Rob Pilatus were recruited
by German dance producer, Frank
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:Farian to lip-sync others' music and
become an international pop sensation.
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:Girl You Know It's True named for their
irresistible breakthrough hit is the
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:story of how Rob and Fab made their
faustian bargain and how it all fell apart
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:when they refused to lip sync anymore.
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:The film from director Simon Verhoeven
is the first major successful attempt
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:to tell the story on screen and
follow stalled efforts by the likes
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:of Rush Hour director, Brett Ratner.
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:Uh, now I don't know if you follow
another Music Room guest, composer
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:David Lowe on the socials, but
he's been posting behind the scenes
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:walkthroughs of his famous works.
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:Uh, if you've heard his Music Room
episode you'll know that David
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:is responsible for the BBC news
theme, the One Show, Countryfile,
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:Grand Designs and so much more.
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:If you're on Instagram,
he's davidlowemusic,
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:that's a Lowe with an E on the end.
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:Uh, So check that out.
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:And if you haven't heard his Music
Room episode, put that in your queue.
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:It's a great listen, and David
is a wise and generous guest.
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:And those are the music stories.
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:Born into a musical family, Rich Chance
learned the tools of the trade and the
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:family business, before moving into a
career of composing for TV and film.
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:Credits include Agatha Raisin,
Absolutely Champers, The Warren:
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:Breakers Law, Jennifer Saunders:
Back in the Saddle and loads more.
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:After a more recent downturn in work
opportunities and a spell in therapy,
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:Rich is back with fantastic new music.
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:The link for which is in the show notes.
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:Without further ado, let's get into the
Music Room to hear from the man himself.
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:Gareth: Rich Chance, composer, songwriter,
musician: welcome to the music room
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:Rich Chance: And creative hack.
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:Thank you very
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:Gareth: to lead with that, but you know,
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:Rich Chance: Pleasure to see you,
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:Gareth: how are you today?
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:Rich Chance: Yeah, I'm doing good.
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:It's, uh, you know, we've got the
sun is shining up here in Preston,
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:which is usually rainy Preston.
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:So that's, uh, that's one thing
that's different and I'm feeling good.
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:I'm very nervous about being on this show
because I listen to this show and, uh, as
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:I was just saying, while we were chatting,
it's sort of like, ASMR for musicians.
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:It's that sort of calming, you can lean
in and get the information or you can
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:lean back and just have the pleasant noise
sort of go, you know, drift over you and,
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:and just, so, you know, it sort of feels
like I'm on a, I'm on some sort of famous
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:TV show as we, you know, when we were
growing up, so thank you for having me.
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:Gareth: yeah, hopefully it will turn
out to be just a nice chat that people
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:can take things from if they want.
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:Rich Chance: Well, you've been very
calming and, uh, you've already done the
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:neural linguistic programming on me to
calm me down before we came on the air.
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:So,
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:Gareth: can I add that to my CV?
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:Rich Chance: yes, absolutely.
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:NLP expert.
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:Gareth: All right.
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:so Rich, if you'll allow, I
want to read your Facebook post
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:to promote your new single.
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:Um, because I think it's
important for people to hear.
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:So it reads, I thought I'd
never play another song of mine
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:to another person last year.
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:I was broke, creatively washed
out, scared to express myself and
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:a shadow of who I am right now.
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:I'm still broke, but I'm alive in
all the ways I'd ever want to be.
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:Wherever you are on your creative journey,
listen to the voice that guides you
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:towards the light and pushes you forward.
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:I think that's just such a beautiful
statement and tells us a lot about
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:how important this is to you.
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:Rich Chance: Right.
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:It's fantastic.
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:I mean, I don't know who came up with
those words, but I wish I was that guy.
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:Um, you know, I think, um, It's this,
this career and mine has been quite sort
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:of, uh, it's taken lots of interesting
twists and turns over the years, but,
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:uh, I think we spend a lot of time being
people pleasers and especially when you
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:work in, I don't know what we call it
these days, but applied music for, you
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:know, film scores and television music
and library music and that sort of thing,
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:where you sort of honed your craft to
a degree so that you're able to deliver
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:quite high quality music quite quickly.
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:Uh, and you're almost always doing it at
the behest of somebody else, and you are
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:almost always going to get a few rounds
of notes and a few corrections on your
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:creative process, and you know, I think
there's a, there's a lot of shame around
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:feeling, uh, hurt by those notes, or
feeling insulted by the idea that, you
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:know, your, your music is going to get
corrected, but At the heart of us all,
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:we're all approval seekers, you know, and
we go into this and we thought somebody
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:gives us a piece of film without any music
on it or maybe they give us an idea of
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:the sort of music they want us to create.
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:And I think the first place that we
go is into the ethereal and into the
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:very personal to try and drag that out.
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:You know, we might talk a good game as,
as sort of tough composers that know
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:that we're basically just, it's craft,
craft, craft, none of it's art, you know.
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:But you do go and visit that little
place inside yourself where you're
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:still a child and you're still, you
know, you're still trying to sort of
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:catch things from your subconscious and
the ether to try and create something
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:that's, that makes you feel great.
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:And so then you have to immediately steal
yourself for delivering that to somebody
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:that is going to see it objectively and
go, Yeah, can you make it more pink?
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:I mean, you know,
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:Gareth: in this case where you're
creating songs for your listeners, your
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:audience, it's not a commissioned thing.
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:know, You're not getting
notes back from a label.
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:Joker Like Me, I might have
to call it, might be one of
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:my favourite tracks this year
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:Rich Chance: oh, thank you so much
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:Gareth: And part of that is, it
was clearly a song that is personal
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:to you and written from the heart.
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:And, uh, it really shows.
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:And I think those kinds of songs really do
show you can kind of immediately sense the
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:honesty can't you, from things like that
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:Rich Chance: Thank you.
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:I didn't quite realise that it was
going to have that impact with,
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:with people around me when I wrote
it and I wrote it very quickly.
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:I can't say that about some of my
other stuff, you know, there's some
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:of it, you know, you can might call
it contrived, you might say it's, uh,
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:just it's the particular style, but
yeah, that, that one sort of came out
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:in one writing session and was brutally
honest and sort of wrote itself, which
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:I know we hear a lot of writers say
that about, about good stuff, don't we?
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:Um, but it's true and, I suppose
I've reached a place where I went away
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:from social media for a few years.
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:I went through, quite a
significant period of unemployment
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:and not having any money.
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:We have a neurodivergent household
and we home educate my son and my wife
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:was doing a degree and we just hit a
very difficult patch in life where,
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:you know, it felt like we couldn't
quite get out of the hole we were in.
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:Um, happy and a loving
household, but, but still that.
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:You know, that sort of cloud
hanging over your head of, is
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:anyone ever going to hire me again?
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:You know, and because I'm sort of socially
awkward and not somebody that enjoys
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:networking and also living in the North.
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:So a lot of the networking
stuff was sort of happening in
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:London and that kind of thing.
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:I also wasn't really able
to mobilise to change that.
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:So I sort of felt myself disappearing
from the career as a, as a
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:film composer and TV composer.
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:And so that obviously had an
effect on my mental health.
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:And I withdrew from social media to
kind of help that really, because as
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:we're all very aware, the comparisons
are there daily of people sort of
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:filtering their lives in a way that
says, Hey, I'm doing this new film.
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:I'm in Abbey Road.
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:I'm doing this.
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:And I don't, I don't decry people
wanting to celebrate their achievements.
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:I think it's a great thing.
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:And really, it comes down to your
own personal filter with that stuff.
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:If you are predisposed to immediately
compare yourself to others in that
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:situation, then, I mean, which I was,
then it started to make me feel terrible,
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:really, you know, because I thought,
well, they're doing that, and I'm not
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:doing anything, and I can't change that,
you know, so, so I went away and didn't
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:really go away to go and live in a cave
or walk through the woods and pluck
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:out some amazing songs or anything, I
just, I just sort of thought, well, I
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:can't fix this, I can't control it, so
I'm just going to go away, you know.
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:and so that and I also went into therapy.
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:I've been in therapy before for
various reasons because I've I
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:used to run a family business and
it was a big theatre show give
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:Gareth: Oh, Oh, we're
going to get into that.
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:Rich Chance: Yeah.
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:right?
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:Yeah.
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:But but for the sort of for the present
day, I found a really great therapist
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:by by virtue of the fact that Leanne,
my wife was studying psychotherapy and
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:she sort of had some great leads on
the sort of therapist I should go for.
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:Gareth: So what
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:Rich Chance: And so,
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:Gareth: the therapy?
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:Rich Chance: um, it was this time
around, it was more of a self development
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:mission than in previous cases where
it's been, um, perhaps because my
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:mental health was poor at that time.
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:You know, so, and, and there's
been, I've had a few misses with it.
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:I mean, if you go on the NHS and you
feel depressed and anxious, they're going
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:to tend to send you for CBT therapy.
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:And I've got, you know, I'm
not a psychotherapy expert and
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:I'm not going to broadcast.
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:You know, all, all opinions are
held by the, uh, by the songwriter,
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:composer, creative hack alone.
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:But, um, it's more of a, it's more of a
quick fix than getting to root causes.
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:And so this time around, I
went more into my childhood.
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:I went more into trauma and shame
and all these kinds of themes.
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:Um, and by the end of that process,
which was about eight months, I, I
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:sort of felt like a different person.
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:And I felt like I sort of felt
less of a need to people please.
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:And I felt sort of more like, the
fear of failure, the volume on
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:that had just really turned down.
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:I sort of thought, well, what, you
know, what am I actually afraid
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:Gareth: That's a really.
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:really good way of putting it.
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:The volume of failure was turned down.
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:I love that
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:Rich Chance: Well, yeah, because
it never, it never sort of
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:disappears from your mind.
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:But, you know, when you really break
it down, a lot of the people, a lot
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:of the sort of supposed critics that
you're worried about, they're not in
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:your life on a day to day basis anyway,
they're these imagined sort of dragons,
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:that are, you know, there might be that
you've worked with someone who's quite
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:judgmental or quite outspoken about
the stuff that other people are doing.
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:Oh, what are they doing that for?
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:Why are they releasing songs
and putting clown makeup on?
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:What an idiot.
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:You know, so I think what happens
is you sort of build this, this
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:wall around yourself and you start
judging everything around you.
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:Oh, goodness me, I couldn't possibly
make a fool of myself in that way.
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:I must, I must stay within the confines
of what everybody expects from me.
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:But those imagined ghosts and dragons
and monsters, whatever you want
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:to call them, they're not showing
up for you when you need them.
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:They're only showing up for you when
you fear them, you know, and so, so I
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:sort of, in the end, if I'm absolutely
honest, I've done a few of the videos and
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:written a few songs and I had the plan
for the album and I was still bottling
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:it a little bit, I wasn't, I wasn't able
to sort of make the step to go, I'm going
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:to post this and, you know, and I, you
know, I think it might have been my wife
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:or somebody close to me just said, you're
just going to have to put it out there.
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:Just do it.
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:Just press the button
and put it out there.
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:And ever since then, it's sort of
like the taps have been on and I
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:can't stop making an idiot of myself.
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:I'm quite enjoying it.
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:I don't know if that, I'm actually
not sure I've answered your question.
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:That was quite a
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:long, uh, long answer.
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:Gareth: that's bang on.
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:And, uh, I think you hit on something
that affects any music creator,
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:which is, is it ever good enough?
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:What are people going to
think of me and all that?
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:And, uh, Yeah.
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:If there's a way of turning the volume
down on that, then, um, I think people
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:would be more bold, more confident to
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:Rich Chance: Yeah, I mean, I think, you
know, we may touch on neurodivergence
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:and I think that it probably exists,
you know, in certainly in many people
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:in the arts, because we see evidence of
the hyperfocus and the magic that comes
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:from it, um, but there's definitely a
component of, overthinking the, the
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:sort of results and the consequences
of showing people the results.
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:So, uh, you know, I mean, clear examples
are, you know, you won't let go of the
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:mix because it's never good enough.
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:You know, you say, oh god, suddenly
those dragons come back and they're
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:like, somebody's going to hear that
bass and they're going to realise
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:I haven't properly controlled
the subsonic frequencies and, you
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:know, whatever it might be, and
actually letting go of that stuff
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:is, is not a musical process at all.
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:It's a, it's an emotional process.
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:And it, you know, uh, what helps me,
what's kind of a positive trigger for
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:me is I sort of think, well, I think
I'm bang average anyway, so somebody,
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:and somebody out there is not going
to think this is good enough anyway.
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:But what do I think?
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:And who am I now?
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:Let's meet me where I am now and let's
go, well, actually, no, that's the best
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:that I could have made that right now.
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:So I'm going to put that out.
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:And that goes for my writing, my mixing,
the mastering of the tracks, the videos.
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:The way I might look
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:Gareth: And actually that's
only half of it, isn't it?
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:Because you're talking about the technical
stuff because music is subjective.
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:So, you know, the other half
you have no control over anyway.
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:Rich Chance: Exactly.
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:I, I already know that at least 50
percent of the population don't like
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:what I'm doing right now and I may
never meet them and that would be great,
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:Gareth: But it's not
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:Rich Chance: you know, so
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:Gareth: it?
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:Rich Chance: no, no it's really not.
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:It's not on all of the all
of the attention and the
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:let's couch it a little bit.
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:I'm, I'm, I've not become a rock star
overnight, but the, the traction I'm
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:receiving and the nice comments that
people are making about my music,
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:it's all really, really lovely.
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:And I'm very, very grateful for it.
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:I also am pleased to report that
I don't need it to continue.
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:Gareth: Hey.
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:Rich Chance: I am doing it for myself, uh,
and that can possibly sound pretentious,
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:you know, but it is where I'm at.
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:And I think maybe that is what's
resonating the most is that I'm
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:not trying to And you can't please
everyone, and if you try and please
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:everyone, I'm not even sure that
anyone would want to listen to that.
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:What is that?
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:That's some sort of Frankenstein
music, isn't it, that nobody
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:Gareth: But then it's, it's, I
mean, it could be part of the
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:Alanis Morissette song, couldn't it?
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:If you try to please your audience.
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:You it's going to make
you less likable a moment.
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:You stop caring and just
do what you want to do.
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:it immediately makes you
more likable and relatable.
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:I think
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:Rich Chance: I hope so, yeah.
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:I mean, I think I'm trying to
please everyone on this podcast
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:by speaking fast at the moment.
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:Ha ha ha ha ha!
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:Nerves!
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:Ha ha ha ha!
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:Gareth: They're just listeners.
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:They don't, I'm sorry listeners.
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:I didn't mean that.
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:Rich Chance: You're not just listeners!
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:Ha ha ha ha!
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:Gareth: Friends of the show.
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:Let's call them that.
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:So let's talk about the actual
music, uh, because you've
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:released, is it four tracks so far,
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:Rich Chance: Yeah, I released
Picture Show in June, and then
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:after that was Azalea Close.
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:Uh, that was in July.
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:And then you get in the
theme here in August.
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:I released a song called Schlong.
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:I'm not coming out.
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:All right.
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:To say that on here, maybe won't tell
everybody what that's about, but it
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:was a slightly politically skewed, um,
track and then the latest one Joker
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:Like Me, which is the one that you've,
you've just been referring to yet.
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:Gareth: So you're releasing an album.
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:You've mentioned these are
the singles from the album.
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:Are you going to keep releasing
every month or is there a,
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:Rich Chance: until I've,
until I've completely
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:spoiled the album.
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:Gareth: Well, you know, it's,
there aren't any rules when you're
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:doing it yourself, are there?
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:So you could release a single every
month until it's an album and then
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:release the album if you wanted.
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:Rich Chance: Well, to be honest with
you, I had sort of thought about not
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:releasing an album and just releasing
a track a month for the rest of my
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:life because I've got so much material
that I could probably finish off.
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:And there's a great artist out
there, if you've not checked
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:him out, called Bill Wurtz.
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:That's spelled W U R T Z.
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:And he, I don't think he's ever released
an album, everything he's done has
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:just been a single song with a video.
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:And he's an absolute hero of mine.
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:He's somewhere between Beck and Steely
Dan and just, he just blows me away.
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:So I'd sort of thought
about doing it that way.
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:And then I don't know, maybe
it's my age, you know, I'm 45.
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:I can still remember the smell
of vinyl and all the rest of
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:it from the first time around.
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:Um, so, you know, I think I've sort
of fallen into my own nostalgic
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:trap of saying, well, you know,
let's, let's, let's make an album.
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:But I suppose one upside of it is
it can sort of be a document of
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:where I was musically this year
and I could box it off and move on
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:Gareth: yes, absolutely.
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:And that comes with its own
narrative really, doesn't it?
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:Because you're in a certain frame
of mind at a certain space in time.
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:So it's kind of a timestamp.
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:Rich Chance: it is and it sort
of gives you permission to change
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:the tone if you wish to on the on
the next installment in a way it?
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:Gareth: Change your DAW template.
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:Rich Chance: Yeah, just sit
fiddling with the you know, the
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:reverb on on the percussion group.
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:Yeah, absolutely.
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:But by the way, I'd love your stuff as
well and you released an album didn't you?
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:And I think I said it was, um, or
if it wasn't an album, you've had a
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:couple of tracks that are absolutely
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:gorgeous, man.
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:Gareth: thank you.
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:Rich Chance: Yeah.
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:Really lovely.
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:And reminded me of Bill Frissell.
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:Gareth: Right.
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:Oh, yes.
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:Rich Chance: I
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:Gareth: you
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:Rich Chance: to you at the time.
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:Yeah.
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:So, so definitely, if
you're listening, check out
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:Gareth: Oh, that's very nice.
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:I'm, I'm bang in the middle of exactly
what you've been talking about, which is
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:I've got probably got enough for an EP.
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:Rich Chance: Right.
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:Gareth: But I keep doubting it.
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:I keep, because it's songs I used to, you
know, I used to be in a band and, did
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:the circuit in London for a few years
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:Rich Chance: Right.
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:Gareth: songwriting was my thing,
but it was a different life.
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:And so to revisit that style,
that songwriting skill set
407
:seems a little bit alien now.
408
:Rich Chance: Well, that is funny.
409
:You should say that.
410
:Yeah.
411
:Because it had been a
while for me as well.
412
:And, uh, yeah, it's a muscle,
413
:isn't it?
414
:Gareth: but I'm glad you did it.
415
:So maybe that'll give me the
confidence to just chuck it
416
:Rich Chance: Thank you.
417
:Well, I have to say, I don't really
think, I mean, I've had friends over
418
:the years who have enjoyed my demos and
stuff that nobody's heard of my songs,
419
:but I don't really feel like I had all
that much to say until I was 45, and
420
:that's not an ageist comment because I
do admire a lot of young artists, Ren
421
:in particular, I just find absolutely
mesmerising to watch his journey.
422
:But me personally, I think having gone
through some stuff and some stuff that
423
:was not great and some stuff that was
really not great, um, it just feeds
424
:the creativity like nothing else.
425
:And so for me, now was the time.
426
:I don't feel like it was too
late or, you know, It's all sort
427
:of come together for me at 45.
428
:Gareth: Oh,
429
:Rich Chance: don't know if that
430
:Gareth: it's that the name of the album?
431
:Rich Chance: The name of the album is
actually Robot, Spider, Zombie, Dog, but I
432
:think I've said so many deep things today
that it should be the name of the album.
433
:Gareth: Nice one.
434
:So.
435
:Are we ready to go back in time?
436
:Rich Chance: Let's go
back in time, Gareth.
437
:Gareth: Insert sting here.
438
:Here we are back in time.
439
:Rich Chance: This is it.
440
:So dream, dream sequence.
441
:So yeah, so I grew up in
a, in a musical family.
442
:From an entertainment background, my
mom and dad were both theatrical agents.
443
:Uh, before that, my dad was a singer.
444
:He was managed by Don Black, who used to
write songs with John Barry, of course.
445
:And, um, he was signed to RCA
Victor and he was quite big
446
:in the world of the crooners.
447
:He worked with Buddy Rich and he knew
people like Matt Monroe and Tony Bennett.
448
:Gareth: That's amazing.
449
:Rich Chance: So he had a very, very
rich musical heritage, most of which
450
:actually took place before I was born.
451
:So, uh, by the time I sort of
came on the scene, dad was, more
452
:involved in, uh, managing people
and, you know, agency stuff and
453
:Gareth: for his
454
:crooning, when were you first
aware that he had that history?
455
:Was he quite open about it or was
it something he didn't talk about
456
:Rich Chance: I mean, I had
to seek out the records.
457
:He wasn't someone that talked, wanted
everybody to use quite a, he's quite
458
:shy, my dad, and I'd say he's an
introvert, but he didn't really know it.
459
:So, you know, he would never shout
about his achievements in that way,
460
:but the records were there when I
was growing up and, you know, there
461
:were these records that had, you
know, Christopher Gunning who was a
462
:great composer who we lost recently.
463
:He was one of the arrangers on the album.
464
:you know, these great things, London
Symphony Orchestra, and I would put
465
:this stuff on and it was just magical.
466
:It was absolutely magical.
467
:The arrangements were, some of the
arrangements were by a guy called
468
:Bob Cornford, who also you look
him up, was an amazing arranger.
469
:Um, um, And so I was sort of transfixed
by that on vinyl very early on, and
470
:the fact that my dad was on the cover,
it's sort of, it's almost set, set
471
:things in motion in a, in a, you know,
sort of hero's journey sort of fashion.
472
:It's like, well, your father is on the
cover of this record, therefore you must
473
:be on the cover of a record, you know.
474
:but also, It was just quite natural.
475
:It was just something that, you know, show
business chat was always in the house.
476
:It was always a case of, I understood
the entertainment business very early on.
477
:I used to answer phones in the office.
478
:I would do the photo copying of the
music for the session musicians.
479
:I would be the kid that had the
flight cases for the band and I
480
:was lugging them into the theaters
and all that sort of stuff.
481
:So I sort of grew up around
the multidisciplinary.
482
:nature of it all in that way.
483
:And when I got to 16, I was in the middle
of a performing arts course at 16 in
484
:Lee college, which is, Lee's a small
place up here in the North, up in North.
485
:Uh, and.
486
:And dad had an opening for me
on, the theater show to come and
487
:come work as a musician on it.
488
:And I, and I refused because I
didn't want to be nepotistic.
489
:I wanted to be my own person.
490
:I wanted to be an actor at the time.
491
:And then he offered me money.
492
:And that was brilliant
because I needed money.
493
:So, so I joined the show and, And
that is kind of where my career
494
:was for, for quite a few years.
495
:I sort of, If I wasn't doing
the keyboards, I was working
496
:on the tracks for the show.
497
:I was working on the, you know,
sitting with the sound engineer and
498
:learning about sound or I was working
with the lighting designer or I was,
499
:you know, all these various roles
until the point where I sort of took
500
:over running the show in my twenties,
which became quite a big operation.
501
:And we did shows for royal family.
502
:We did shows, arenas, you know, all
sorts of stuff around the world.
503
:and it was during the course of that work
in theatre that I started to branch out
504
:and do other things as a session musician.
505
:And, uh, I also worked with my sister.
506
:My sister was a, or is a, an actress
and an improv performer who used to
507
:be with the comedy store players,
if And she's very, very artistic.
508
:So I was a founding member
of her improv group.
509
:So alongside, I started to work in
doing quite a lot of improv stuff
510
:where we would, uh, make West End
musicals up on the spot with audience
511
:suggestions, a little bit of that
very, very similar to Showstoppers if
512
:anyone's been to Edinburgh festival,
probably running as long, actually.
513
:So I had this, these sort of all these
diverse areas of my career going on.
514
:And at a certain point, a film director
came to film the show, and I got quite
515
:friendly with him and I gave him a CD.
516
:And it was just a CD of songs, and I
didn't hear from him, and he just, I
517
:kind of forgot about it really, because
it was, it was that time, that time
518
:in history when we gave people CDs.
519
:And, uh, and so, and then he got in
touch with me one day, and he said,
520
:can you write music for a TV show.
521
:And I said, yes, knowing full well
that I had absolutely no idea what I
522
:was doing, but I mean, who wouldn't
say yes, you know And he said, well,
523
:we haven't got a very big budget.
524
:Can you just give us a couple of tracks,
you know, so it was 500 quid or something.
525
:Can you give us a couple of tracks,
you know, and because I'd never done it
526
:before, because I was desperate to sort
of, get involved in that kind of stuff.
527
:Because like everybody, yeah.
528
:I'd grown up listening to John Williams
and Jerry Goldsmith and all these, you
529
:know, just thinking, oh my God, how
do you even do, who does that career?
530
:Who actually does that?
531
:You know?
532
:so I just gave it my all and I gave
him two hours worth of tracks and I
533
:just sat, you know, just sat, just sat
there, just, you know, furiously hyper
534
:focusing and what about this idea?
535
:What about that one?
536
:Do you want another one?
537
:Do you want another one?
538
:You know, Uh, you know, all just
because it was flowing out of me and
539
:I thought, wow, somebody's giving
me this incredible opportunity.
540
:I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna pass up on it.
541
:I want, I want to.
542
:And, you know, also, because I just didn't
know what was right and what wasn't.
543
:I was just throwing stuff at the
wall and seeing what would stick.
544
:So from there, and that
director's name was Will Yap.
545
:And he, he had previously
worked with, uh, Louis Theroux
546
:and done a few great things.
547
:I've done up to date, I think I've
done about 10 films with Will.
548
:And I did, straight after that, I
did, um, a great show with Jennifer
549
:Saunders called Back in the Saddle
for ITV, which was on primetime.
550
:And then a few more primetime things
for ITV, and then one or two things
551
:for Sky, BBC, blah, blah, blah.
552
:And, uh, so it just, I
was very, very lucky.
553
:I was definitely, you know, I've got to
say to anybody out there who is, being
554
:tortured by the eternal question of
how do you get ahead in this business?
555
:I was one of the lucky ones in terms
of, you know, rubbing shoulders with
556
:somebody that was able to give me an
opportunity and I'll never forget that.
557
:Um, now I do think that in
order to keep that gig, you've
558
:got to learn how to do it.
559
:You know, somebody will open
the door and say, here's a job.
560
:I don't think I would have necessarily
got the other jobs if I hadn't
561
:continued to try and get good at it.
562
:Um, I, I, well, I mean, I don't
know if I am actually any good at
563
:it, but nobody's found me out yet.
564
:Gareth: well, I think the proof
is in the hiring, isn't it?
565
:You know, people have obviously
hired you and you've done the
566
:job and you've been hired again.
567
:So I think that proves it,
568
:Rich Chance: and it's a strange thing
because, you know, some of that is musical
569
:talent and a lot of that is, is playing
all of the other games of life, isn't it?
570
:It's about, um, you know,
communication skills.
571
:I mean, I only recently found out
that I'm neurodivergent and I don't
572
:have an a, a formal diagnosis.
573
:There's about a 10 year waiting list
for one, but having lived with a
574
:therapist and gone to a therapist,
you know, they've sort of looked at
575
:some of the comorbidities and we sort
of know where I fall on all of this.
576
:But I used to, I used to shake to
the point where I couldn't speak
577
:if a production manager called
me to discuss the fee for a TV
578
:Gareth: right.
579
:Rich Chance: I was, I was absolutely
in fight or flight mode every time the
580
:phone rang, you know, and I sort of
started at the end of the noughties.
581
:So people still rang you, you know,
I don't think anybody rings you
582
:anymore, but, but the landline rang and
583
:Gareth: The
584
:Rich Chance: was at The
end of it, you know?
585
:Yeah.
586
:Gareth: the landline.
587
:Rich Chance: Yeah.
588
:Yeah.
589
:But, you know, it was that
one thing, made me terrified.
590
:So what am I going to say?
591
:Cause if I, if I say I'm too much money,
then, then I'm going to lose the gig,
592
:and you know, I think a lot of, emerging
composers struggle with this stuff
593
:in terms of understanding their
594
:Gareth: a lot of, experienced
composers struggle
595
:Rich Chance: lot of 45 year
old creative hacks still,
596
:Gareth: the other day, um, I
responded to a, a post that
597
:someone was looking for a composer.
598
:So I said, I'm a composer,
emails were exchanged.
599
:And the first thing that they
said was, what are your rates?
600
:And this was a little short film.
601
:You have enough experience to read
between the lines that it's probably
602
:not going to be a very big budget.
603
:So I, I wrote back and said, look,
rather than me just saying what I
604
:last got on a TV show, which will
probably price me out of this project.
605
:Let's just have a conversation about
what the project is and, what your
606
:current budget is for, for the music,
because I can easily price myself out
607
:or, you know, I want to get it right.
608
:I'd rather do something because I like
it for less, you know, didn't hear back.
609
:Just so well, you know, there's, I
think there are, there are things
610
:to be learned on both sides.
611
:Rich Chance: It's, that's,
that's really interesting.
612
:Yeah.
613
:And, and what it also teaches you is that
you're not really in control of those
614
:decisions as much as you think you are.
615
:You're not going to ruin your own career
by coming in too, too hot on the price
616
:in the way that you fear you might, you
know, the game I play with myself is if I
617
:take this on, what is the minimum amount
of money I'm going to need so that at
618
:nine o'clock at night on a Thursday when
I've decided I've got no ideas and I don't
619
:even know why I said yes to this and I
want to throw all my gear in the bin.
620
:I'm going to be able to tell myself, Oh,
well, at least you got that, you know, and
621
:I'm, that might be a slightly pessimistic
and cynical view of the whole process.
622
:But, and then there are other things where
you get into a creative situation and it
623
:fills your cup so much creatively that
you're not, you would just do it for free.
624
:And we, we have all had at least one
of those where we've gone oh God, This
625
:lights all of the lights in my brain
up, I'm being allowed to write the music
626
:I want, I, you know, everything's just
working, I get on with the director, I
627
:can see where this is going, you know.
628
:But for those ones where you're sort of
like, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure.
629
:That's usually my barometer.
630
:It's like, well, when it gets
dark, what do you wish you'd said?
631
:Gareth: it's really tricky, isn't it?
632
:Because it's not like, um, being
a composer in particular is
633
:such a, uh, a strange kind of,
there are no job salary bands.
634
:There are no, you know,
every project's different.
635
:You can't just apply to a
job you see in the newspaper.
636
:Um, it's all to do with.
637
:Networking and who you know,
and, and, and then the kind of
638
:Mexican standoff of negotiations
of, well, how much do you want?
639
:Well, how much have you got kind of thing?
640
:And it's really difficult, really
641
:Rich Chance: Yeah.
642
:You sort of, you've sort of signed up to
be an entrepreneur without realising it.
643
:Cause all you wanted to do was to
644
:Gareth: it's the last thing
you want to do, isn't it?
645
:Rich Chance: Yeah, absolutely.
646
:I had one recently actually, where
I knew that they didn't have much
647
:of a budget and I knew that they
were also themselves finding it
648
:difficult to have the conversation,
which I think is the benefit of age.
649
:Sometimes you can detect where
it might be going, you know?
650
:But I, well, I just sort of said, because
I didn't know what they had and I didn't
651
:really want to say what's your budget.
652
:Cause I knew what the
answer was going to be.
653
:It was going to be.
654
:So I just said in general, 10 to
15 percent of the budget is sort of
655
:where, the composing fee would be
656
:Gareth: I like that.
657
:Rich Chance: If you can't quite make
that, then let's have a chat anyway.
658
:But that, if that helps you, that's
roughly where you should be looking.
659
:And then someone came back and went, we
can't give you 10 percent of the budget.
660
:We haven't got it.
661
:And I went, okay, well, what have you got?
662
:And then blah, blah, blah.
663
:And
664
:Gareth: That's a really good
way of kicking things off.
665
:Because it's kind of
666
:non confrontational, isn't it?
667
:Rich Chance: that was just going
to say, it's like distancing
668
:language where nobody's actually,
no shots were fired here.
669
:But we've, but we've discussed
the ballpark of what we need to
670
:Gareth: like that, like that.
671
:Rich Chance: Yeah.
672
:Yeah.
673
:Oh, at least I've been useful once.
674
:You're going to edit this whole thing
down so that Richard Chance's negotiation
675
:Gareth: absolutely.
676
:Put it in the, uh, the episode title.
677
:well, Rich, I ask all of my guests to
leave an item and a piece of advice
678
:for others to find in the music room.
679
:What item would you like to leave?
680
:Rich Chance: Okay.
681
:So I've thought about this.
682
:I need to reread it because I'm
guessing there's going to be
683
:some outdated references in it.
684
:But a book that really meant a lot
to me at various stages of my career.
685
:is Never Too Late To Be Great
686
:by Tom Butler-Bowdon.
687
:And that book is a sort of document
of all of the people that succeeded
688
:at a late stage in their lives
and at a late stage in the game.
689
:it's obviously got some, some capitalist
overtones and it's got a few self help
690
:overtones, but it's still a great read for
anyone that's thinking What am I doing?
691
:Should I be doing this?
692
:Should I be doing something else?
693
:So that's the thing I'd like to leave
694
:Gareth: That's fantastic.
695
:That'll go into the music room.
696
:and, so, what piece of advice
would you like to leave?
697
:Rich Chance: Well, I think based
on where I am now and what we've
698
:discussed, the best advice that I've
ever sort of taken on board is to
699
:be authentic and to be yourself and
to lead your own journey because,
700
:you can't do this for somebody else.
701
:You can't try and please the crowd.
702
:You have got to find the thing
that lights you up and just do it.
703
:As they say, find what what you love
and do it till it kills you basically.
704
:So I really, honestly, with hand on heart,
everything that I've done in my career,
705
:all the times I've tried to get a leg
up through networking or tried to make
706
:a wise business decision or shout about
something I've done in my career, the
707
:happiest I've ever been is just following
my own dreams and following my own lead.
708
:So that is the advice
709
:Gareth: Oh, talking about,
following your own journey.
710
:You mentioned in a post about, uh,
a little tour, maybe next year.
711
:Rich Chance: Yep.
712
:So, yeah, we've only actually got one
date in at the moment, but I'm working
713
:on all the date sheets at the moment.
714
:So, um, my hometown of Preston has got
this great original venue called the
715
:New Continental and I will be there
th of January,:
716
:And then following on from that, we're
going to start putting dates with
717
:my band in for the rest of the year.
718
:Hopefully one a month.
719
:We've got a few festivals that we're
looking at as the IPO festival in
720
:March, which is the international
pop over through a festival, which
721
:takes place at the cabin in Liverpool.
722
:And it's a, it's loads of great.
723
:bands from the power pop and new
wave sort of genres that people may
724
:not know about and i'm hopefully
included on that so i will obviously
725
:be keeping people updated on my social
media which has been rather busy of
726
:late
727
:Gareth: absolutely.
728
:I'll put your links in the show
notes as well for people to find you.
729
:But for now it's been such a
joy chatting with you, Rich.
730
:And, uh, thanks for joining
me in the music room.
731
:Rich Chance: it's been
amazing thank you so much mate
732
:Gareth: Thanks for listening to
the Music Room podcast today.
733
:If you'd like to know more about the
show or the community that surrounds
734
:it, head to musicroom.community.
735
:The link is in the show notes.
