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Episode 31

John Elleson-Hartley shares expert advice on mixing & mastering, and chats about the power of networking to nurture professional relationships

Personal stories of inspiration from music industry professionals.

In this episode, Gareth chats with John Elleson-Hartley, who shares expert advice on mixing & mastering, and chats about the power of networking to nurture professional relationships

Host: Gareth Davies

Produced by The Sound Boutique

Connect with Gareth

Support The Music Room

Music Room newsletter

Transcript
Speaker:

John Elleson-Hartley: Four,

three, two, one, cue Gareth!

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Gareth Davies: Welcome to the music room.

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This time in the music room.

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John Elleson-Hartley: one thing I

often tell people is how does sound

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sound?

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I know that sounds probably stupid, but.

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If you take an EQ and shove a high cut

on it so you're just hearing the sub.

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How does that sub sound?

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Can you hear the sub Then how

do the bass frequencies sound?

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Does that make you just go, Ooh,

or is that, Ooh, that's horrible.

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Gareth Davies: Welcome to the music

room, the show, or I chat with music

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industry professionals about what

they're up to before going back in time

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to discover how it all began for them.

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Uh, this episode marks a tiny

change in the guest lineup.

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And you may have noticed, I said

music industry professionals there.

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I'm always thinking about ways to help

composers, songwriters and musicians

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to navigate their musical lives.

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And I've come to the conclusion

that as well as hearing from.

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Uh, other composers, songwriters

and musicians who've had success

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and can therefore pass on tips and

advice, there are other people in

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the industry that can offer really

valuable and relevant advice too.

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By the way, if you enjoy this

episode or you feel like you've

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learned something by listening to it.

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I'd be so grateful if you

could share the episode.

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Which you can do from wherever

you're listening to it.

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Whatever app, you listen to podcasts in.

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Share it with a friend via text or

share it to your Instagram or whatever

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you crazy kids are using these days.

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I love producing this show and it means

so much when listeners appreciate that

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effort and pass it forward to people

who might enjoy it or benefit from it.

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So thanks in advance.

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Today we have a guest whose main

role is mixing and mastering.

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John Elleson-Hartley has a client list as

long as your arm and for very good reason.

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We'll be chatting about what he's up

to, uh, he'll be offering some mixing

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and mastering tips, uh, and of course,

John will be leaving an item and piece

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of advice later on for you to find.

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But before that music stories.

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The European branch of first

artist management FAM, or FAM the

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international talent agency representing

composers music, supervisors and

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music editors has announced a second

edition of its UK composer assistant

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and mentor program or C.A.M.P.

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Ivor Novello award-winning composer

Hannah Peel will be the C.A.M.P.

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2024 to 25 ambassador and is

co-curating the programme.

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Composer mentors already signed

up, include Music Room guest Alex

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Baranowski, Natalie Holt and Re

Olenuga with others to be announced.

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The initiative is designed for young

music makers from underrepresented

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groups, wanting to break into the

industry with the aim of launching new

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voices and creating new role models.

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And a couple of new releases from

members of the Music Room community.

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Film composer turned songwriter Rich

Chance has a quirky song out called

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Picture Show all about robot spider zombie

dogs, which he posted on 28th of June.

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You can find him on Spotify,

et cetera at rich chance.

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Or follow his socials, rich chance

music on Instagram and Facebook.

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Or rich chance songs on Tik TOK.

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Marco Iannello has a new EP called

ambient miniatures volume one.

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He says, I decided to repurpose a few demo

tracks I did for sample library developer

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into an EP plus an outsider written

to a brief that did not make the cut.

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The result is a small collection

of so-called miniatures to take

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the listener through a journey of

ambient soundscapes and lo fi beats.

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That's fantastic.

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Really nice to see some new releases.

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And those are the music stories.

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Mixing and mastering engineer.

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John Elleson-Hartley

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is incredibly passionate about making

music sound as good as possible.

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Collaborating personally, with composers

and artists to help bring their

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tracks and albums to life, ensuring

they are completely happy before

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releasing their music to the world.

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John also offers one-to-one online music

production coaching, and advice for those

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wanting to improve their skills and sound.

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Clients include Emmy and RTS winning

composer Nainita Desai, Ivor Novello

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and BAFTA winning Arthur Sharpe, Ivor

nominated composer Chris Rowe, Ivor

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winning Ian Livingston, Joanna Karselis.

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Alex Parsons, Marie-Anne Fischer,

Marcus Hedges, and many more.

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Wow.

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There were a few Music Room

guests in there as well.

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Let's get into the Music Room to

find out what John is up to now,

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before heading back in time to

find out how it all began for him.

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Here we go.

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Gareth: John Ellison Hartley,

mixing and mastering legend.

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Welcome to the Music Room.

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John Elleson-Hartley: Hi

Gareth, thank you for that.

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Lovely to be here having a chat with you.

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Gareth: Yeah, we've already had a

big chat and, uh, I realised that

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I really needed to hit record.

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To to capture it, so I'm really

looking forward to this chat today.

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So you've had an interesting week.

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I've seen from your socials that you've

just been to the develop conference.

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Uh, so it's been a busy week for you.

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What is the develop conference

and, um, well, yeah, what

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is the develop conference?

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I'm going to ask you another question

about networking as well after that.

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John Elleson-Hartley:

The develop conference.

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I don't know that much of

it was my first time there.

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And it's for gaming, basically everything

about that side of the industry.

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So anybody can be there from the

developers all the way through

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to actors and composers and

everybody in between really.

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Um, but yes, very much, as you say,

it's a networking opportunity and just

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a gathering of lots of good people.

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Gareth: Oh

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John Elleson-Hartley:

and it's really exciting.

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There's so many things going on and

lots of freebies as well in there,

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in the expo and lots of talks, so

many people, you know, seeing what's

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actually happening in the industry,

um, and stuff to learn basically.

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Gareth: we touched on before hitting

record was, the emphasis you put on

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networking, not just for looking for

clients, but also looking for peers

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in the industry and learning, learning

from the conference and learning from

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other people at the conference as well.

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Did you find that it was a useful

conference from that perspective?

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John Elleson-Hartley: I mean, I've, what

we do is all about people, um, making

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those connections and to actually see

people who you already know, to then

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maybe people who you've sort of known

online and actually get to meet them

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in real life, and all the way through

to somebody who's completely different,

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nothing to do with what you do.

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for an example, uh, my friend Marcus

Hedges and I, we went to the Game

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Audio, um, drinks that yesterday night.

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That's very good English.

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And, um, Yeah, there were four women

there before when we came in and they

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had all the lovely sofa and seats and

said, Oh, we're the comfy piece, join.

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And they were actors, voice actors and

motion capture that side of things.

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Gareth: wow.

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John Elleson-Hartley: And being able to

say what they do, but then the passion

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and energy, which then we pick up on that.

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And I always come away from

I've learned something about

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something I had no idea about.

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the technology that's being

used, the difficulties, and even

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thinking about funding behind

some of the stuff they're doing.

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And yeah, you're just perked up.

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And then like today, it's

all right, I've got to get on

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with more work and more this.

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So I think being fueled up

by meeting other wonderful

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people and what they're doing.

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Gareth: Yeah, absolutely.

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Conferences are good

for that, aren't they?

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To inspire you to, uh, you know, maybe

perhaps sometimes we think, oh, you

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know, it's just another day, but to go

and like you say, mix with other people.

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it's inspiring.

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It's invigorating.

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Uh,

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John Elleson-Hartley: And I

imagine you get that because

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you've gone to some podcast events,

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haven't you as well, because you

you're building this and this amazing

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Music Room and everything else.

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I was gonna say conglomerate then, but

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Gareth: Conglomerate, ooh.

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John Elleson-Hartley: do you

feel from coming back from there?

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Do you get

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Gareth: Yeah, yeah, similar.

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I mean it's, it's a bit weird networking

in a different industry almost.

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It's, it's a little bit of a Venn

diagram, um, with audio in the middle.

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But yeah, I feel exactly the same.

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You know, it's, I think also it's just

taking time out of your normal routine.

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Uh, just kickstarts

your brain, doesn't it?

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So even on the train to these

things, you're thinking, Oh, right.

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You know, I'm taking a step back.

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I can think of, my kind of business

as a whole and, it sparks ideas

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and certainly meeting people then,

that accelerates, doesn't it?

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And, uh, by the time you're back

in the studio, you're ready to go.

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You're raring to go.

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Yeah.

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John Elleson-Hartley: being

out of your comfort zone.

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And I think when going to events, when

we work in our own little space, it's

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nice and quiet and I can just be here.

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Oh, let's do this.

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And no, I don't want to go somewhere.

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But actually, once you go there,

usually there's at least one

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person who you come away going.

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That was so good to have met that person.

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At least it's well worth going out.

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Gareth: Yeah, absolutely.

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Uh, so yes, I think both of our advice

there is go to networking events, go

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to conferences, because you just don't

know what you'll come away with, even if

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it's just an idea in your head.

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John Elleson-Hartley: Well, I think

more this, where we've been so used to

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socials now, I think they're, they're

sort of failing from where they used

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to be and really connecting people.

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It's just seems to have become stale

and it's great to still make the

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connections, but very much more of

get back to the human connection.

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And it's about working collaborating,

trusting them, building that

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bond over time and having fun.

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and working with good people.

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I'd say..

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Gareth: Absolutely.

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Here's to that.

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So on your website, John, uh,

you have a wall of artwork.

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It's like your famous wall that

you post sometimes on your, on your

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socials.

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You know, TV and film and all

the releases you've worked on.

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It must feel pretty amazing to look

at all those releases knowing that

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you had a hand in making the music

sound as good as it possibly can.

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How does that feel for you?

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John Elleson-Hartley: it, yeah,

it's a bit mind boggling at times.

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And I do need that there to

look back because I tend to

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have quite a rotation of work.

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And sometimes it's like, what did

I do last week or the week before?

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And it's very sobering, I

suppose, to just load that up.

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And I create the big wall

thing myself in Pixelmator,

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which is like a Photoshop thing.

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And it does take a bit of time, but it

is also time to just go, Oh yeah, I did

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that, and oh wow, that person who I worked

with there, and oh, they create, Oh, I

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must go and have a listen to that again.

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because sometimes, you know, you

forget what you've done and then re

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experience the emotional wow, you know,

because the people I get to work with,

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they just write really good music and

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Gareth: actually.

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So you look, you look

back at previous work.

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Does it inform you in your future work?

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Do you suddenly listen to something

and go, Ooh, you know, I, uh, I

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fiddled with the high end there.

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John Elleson-Hartley: No, I, I

have different ways of thinking.

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It's like when I was a composer,

I would be working that way.

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Then you mix in a different way.

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Um, and when I now mix and

master, I listen to sound.

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So, Particularly when I'm mastering,

I'm not really listening to the music.

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I'm listening to the sound.

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So it's only maybe the next day where

I'll put the whole lot on and just listen,

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or even sometimes with our perfection.

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I don't know how you are.

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Um, the perfection doesn't exist, but

you want to be as good as possible.

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And it's weird that.

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Once I've let something go and

it's been released, maybe a week

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or two after, I'd actually just

listen to it just to enjoy it.

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And that's when I relax.

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I'm like, oh yeah, I think I

did a pretty good job on that.

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Okay, right.

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Whew.

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And then it's put to bed.

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Um, it's just the way I work, I suppose.

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Gareth: you know, that's nice to

actually listen back and think, right,

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I covered all of those sonic things.

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Now I can just enjoy the music.

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John Elleson-Hartley: And also, you

know, being afraid of, well, not

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being afraid of making mistakes.

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And there's always some, and

what is a mistake anyway?

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Um, there might be a resonant frequency

of one thing in a track that I'm like,

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Ooh, that could have been a little better,

but I'm not them beating myself up.

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It's like, no, I'm happy.

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It's good.

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And ultimately my clients are happy

because you've sent something back to

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them and they're happy to release that.

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So

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that's the job really.

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Gareth: fantastic.

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And speaking to that, for a lot of

composers, songwriters and musicians who

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perhaps don't have the budget to outsource

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mixing and mastering, what kind

of tips can you share for them to

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look out for when they're mixing

and mastering their own music and

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maybe even at the recording stage?

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John Elleson-Hartley: The main

thing for me, which is always comes

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back to is learning your gear.

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So, if you're working on headphones or

speakers and the room that they're in, and

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preferably if you can do some treatment in

that room, if you're using speakers, but

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get the best possible ones you can, and

then learn how music sounds through them.

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And that also is the same

with your phone speakers, car

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speakers, anything like that.

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So that whenever you make any judgment,

when you're mixing or creating, even

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if you completely messing something up,

making it distorted and go, what the

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hell, I'm just gonna be stupid with this.

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Yeah, throw everything at it.

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But if you know that it still

sounds okay in your headphones,

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then you can have confidence I

always say, does it sound right?

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It's like, why did you do it?

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And does it sound right?

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And if you can answer those

questions, then it's like, fine.

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Don't worry about it wasn't

done the right way or not.

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I often go back to, you know,

the creativity time of, say, the

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Beatles, where they were just

really pushing boundaries and,

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let's grab this and do the other.

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But you had a check at the end.

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Does it sound right?

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So yeah, I get that quite a bit of

people saying, Oh, I don't know if

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it's the right way or, you know,

EQ before compressor or after.

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Well, there's ways of knowing.

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Um,

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Gareth: Yeah.

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And I guess that, you know, composers

will know that there's no right

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way to write music, you know?

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Uh, so for someone to say, this is how you

should be doing it is, is utter rubbish.

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You know, by definition of being

creative, you're creating something from

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nothing and that's entirely up to you.

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But, I guess from that kind of

perspective, from the composer

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songwriter, um, musician perspective.

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It's a bit of a dark art, isn't it?

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The mixing mastering side.

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It's more kind of technical,

um, more science-y just from

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our kind of point of view

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John Elleson-Hartley:

Sort of and again, I was

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guilty of

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using many

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years

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ago

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it's like, Ooh, um, which is

absolutely, I was going to say another

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word, but it's absolute rubbish.

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Um, but

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Gareth: Hartley.

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John Elleson-Hartley:

wizard, I've been called a

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wizard

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and a warlock at times.

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Yeah, it's like, so I can

take, I don't mind that.

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But,

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Gareth: can both.

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Create magic and destroy.

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Ooh.

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John Elleson-Hartley:

just, learning the basics.

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So even as you say, capturing sound

from the beginning, always having things

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as good as possible, sounding as good

as possible, knowing the basics of EQ.

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And one thing I often tell

people is how does sound sound?

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I know that sounds probably stupid, but.

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If you take an EQ and shove a high cut

on it so you're just hearing the sub.

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How does that sub sound?

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Can you hear the sub in

what you're listening to?

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You know, some headphones or

speakers, you won't even hear it.

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So it's being aware that

you're not hearing it.

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Then how do the bass frequencies sound?

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How the mids and the very high, you

know, that lovely little sizzly top end.

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Does that make you just go,

Ooh, or is that, Ooh, that's

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horrible.

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So that all goes back to, again,

listening to a ton of music.

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on your gear so that you

know what is or isn't right.

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And also there's no quote 'right' sound.

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You look, you can listen to so many

masters, totally different, but there

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is a sort of accepted quality level

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that's

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Gareth: Yeah, and coming full

circle to what you were saying

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before about does it feel right?

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You know, not relying on what you're

seeing in front of you in terms

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of numbers and waves and whatever.

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Um, and thinking, Oh, actually

that vocal sounds really piercing.

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So

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John Elleson-Hartley: That's exactly,

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Gareth: don't rely on the

numbers in front of you.

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What does it sound like?

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And, uh, go from there.

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John Elleson-Hartley: And certainly

numbers now where, I mean, the

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whole luffs thing is awesome in

terms of mastering and, pulling back

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from the loudness war to a degree.

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But one of my worst things you see now is

like, what luffs should I mix my track to?

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You shouldn't even really be

thinking about luffs at the mix.

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And there's,

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Gareth: By the

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John Elleson-Hartley: may or may not.

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Gareth: could you explain LUFS, just for

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John Elleson-Hartley: Oh, hell.

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loudness loudness units.

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I'm not that technical on these things.

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Is it

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Gareth: Sorry, put

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John Elleson-Hartley:

units full scale, isn't it?

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Yes.

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Oh, let me just Google that.

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Um,

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Gareth: But it's about loudness, isn't it?

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John Elleson-Hartley: yes.

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And it's, it's not peaks.

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So there was a thing called RMS

years ago, we used to use and we

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still use it root mean squared,

which again, I just say that.

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So it makes me sound like I

know what I'm talking about.

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But yeah, how loud things are, okay.

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And generally now you have an integrated

loudness which is, how loud the

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entire track is from start to finish.

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And that's how, when it goes on to

streaming, it will be adjusted up or down.

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Well, no, usually down, not up so much.

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so that most of the tracks are

as similar in level as possible.

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And then you don't have

to worry about peaks.

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But I also know with production

libraries, I've talked with composers,

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and it's this thing where some people,

they hear things and they go, Oh,

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the tracks you send in must be this

luffs or peaking at this luffs.

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Well, is that integrated

as in the overall track?

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Is it momentary, which is the short one?

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Is it short term luffs?

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But they've just come up with a

figure, and then composers are

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worrying, Well, what should I do?

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I

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Gareth: So the, yeah, the, the difference

between say a hip hop track and an

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orchestral classical track with the, all

the dynamics that are involved in that.

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That can be quite enormous

level wise, can't it?

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When you're playing it back on

your streaming service or whatever.

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John Elleson-Hartley: and if it's going

to be mastered, it doesn't matter.

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Just leave some headroom,

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and it's going to be sorted out.

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Does it sound good?

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:

And that's the other, you're

back to, Does it sound good?

383

:

Send it off to be polished.

384

:

Gareth: Yeah.

385

:

Leave it to John the Warlock

and, uh, all, all will be well.

386

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yeah, and there's,

there's just so many things like that

387

:

that you can do, but ultimately the tips

of things is just play and have fun.

388

:

Gareth: Yeah.

389

:

John Elleson-Hartley: So if you've learnt

what things sound like, mess with it.

390

:

Um, I'll often, if I load up a plug

or even a distortion thing, you

391

:

know, just crank it up to all full.

392

:

What is this doing?

393

:

And then pull it back and

go, yes, no, I like that.

394

:

And there's also a really good thing,

I use Logic, but particularly for

395

:

saturation plugins that you want to

see is if you put the Logic EQ and then

396

:

before that use the test oscillator and

make sure you mute because otherwise

397

:

you're just going to get that coming out.

398

:

And then, oh no, then you've

got to put the saturation

399

:

or any plugin before the EQ.

400

:

So I'm using the EQ as

an analyzer basically.

401

:

And if you've got an analyzer, use that.

402

:

But you'll see with say that one kilohertz

test tone, and then you put your plug

403

:

in on, and then saturate it, you can

see all the little harmonics coming in.

404

:

And it's like, ooh, so visually

being able to see that this is

405

:

what's happening to my sound.

406

:

I always find that quite useful as

407

:

Gareth: Oh, I'm going to try that.

408

:

I'm going to have to listen back

to this and try it for myself.

409

:

John Elleson-Hartley: sometimes

you can do that, and you just crank

410

:

it full up, and you're like, oh,

that's not actually doing much.

411

:

And then you add another thing,

which you think is quite subtle,

412

:

and you're like, ooh, look at all

that colouring going on up there.

413

:

That's interesting.

414

:

Gareth: Amazing.

415

:

Amazing.

416

:

And of course you have, an

online coaching service as well.

417

:

So even if people want to do it themselves

or aren't in position to outsource

418

:

that, you can go online like this and.

419

:

Talk things through

with clients, can't you?

420

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yeah, I

find that's become more popular

421

:

over this last year or two.

422

:

And mainly you hear more about how,

you know, the internet was going to be

423

:

this freedom of information and it's

going to be amazing and wonderful.

424

:

And now we have just so much

information and some disinformation

425

:

or not so good, you know, do this

every time on your vocal parts.

426

:

Um, And generally what I'm

hearing is that people just don't

427

:

know which thing to do or not.

428

:

So there's a confusion.

429

:

And I love being able to just either

in maybe one session, all the way to

430

:

almost continuous, that you can answer

their queries, and then they go off

431

:

and you can just see them heading off

because you've just answered an issue

432

:

or something they were frustrated with.

433

:

Click done.

434

:

Gareth: Yeah, which can change everything.

435

:

You know, the, the, the worst thing,

worst position that people who record

436

:

find themselves in is six months later,

that little niggle that they had kind

437

:

of spoiling it for them six months

later when they think back and say,

438

:

I wish I could have fixed that little

thing that was annoying me at the time.

439

:

John Elleson-Hartley: It's a

pet thing I have of, um, I want

440

:

people to be more confident.

441

:

And that's in what they're

doing, but in life as well.

442

:

You know, you can you can learn

confidence because I think

443

:

some people say, no, I can't.

444

:

Some people are lucky to have been

raised in a family environment

445

:

where there are confident parents

and they're introduced to different

446

:

lifestyle and everything else.

447

:

And it's like, yes, go

out there and I shall do.

448

:

And hello, handshake with somebody,

you know, and seeing some, it's those

449

:

basics of talking where so many people

now after school or university you're

450

:

hearing they're not comfortable because

they've just been behind a screen most

451

:

of the time and then going out like we're

talking about networking going out and

452

:

doing that and actually just seeing so and

then to be able to do that approach with

453

:

work and just go i know my sound i know

this this is basic eq a compressor will

454

:

do Don't get hung up on your compressor.

455

:

Uh, you know, logic.

456

:

I will talk about logic

because that's the one I do.

457

:

But you've got all variety

of compressors in there.

458

:

You can pick any of them.

459

:

It really doesn't matter.

460

:

But there are favorites and there are

particular things and characteristics.

461

:

But you can do some changing.

462

:

Does it sound right?

463

:

Job done.

464

:

Move on.

465

:

If you then wanted somebody to come and

look at it and say, How did I do or what?

466

:

Fine.

467

:

Gareth: Hmm.

468

:

John Elleson-Hartley: But learning

the basics, and that's very often what

469

:

I cover, and clarifying, I suppose.

470

:

Gareth: Excellent.

471

:

Excellent.

472

:

I will put a link in the show notes

for people to rush down and get in

473

:

touch with you, uh, if they're having

a bit of trouble with their mixes.

474

:

Are we ready to go back in time, John?

475

:

I want to know how it all began for you.

476

:

Doodly

477

:

John Elleson-Hartley:

And now, back in time.

478

:

Gareth: Here we are.

479

:

And strangely enough, because

I'm away from the studio, I am

480

:

actually in my childhood bedroom at

481

:

John Elleson-Hartley: That's amazing.

482

:

Gareth: So that, yes, that's

quite pertinent and a little

483

:

bit freaky, but there we go.

484

:

John Elleson-Hartley: So

485

:

Gareth: So I am truly back in time.

486

:

John Elleson-Hartley:

You look younger as well.

487

:

Gareth: oh, now I know you're lying,

but that's very nice of you to say.

488

:

So, here we are.

489

:

How did it all start for John?

490

:

Was music a part of your

life from an early age?

491

:

Was it a bit later?

492

:

How did it all start for you?

493

:

Oh,

494

:

John Elleson-Hartley: was seven

and back in England where we always

495

:

did recorders for everything.

496

:

That was, um, you got given an alias

plastic descant recorder or something.

497

:

Gareth: The brown with

the, uh, kind of cream

498

:

John Elleson-Hartley: high quality.

499

:

Love it.

500

:

And then they've got a

treble version of that.

501

:

But yeah, my junior school had

a really good teacher and I

502

:

wish I could remember names.

503

:

But you just have that involvement of

being part of a group, and we must have

504

:

sounded quite hellish with a whole group

of like 10 to 20 recorders going off.

505

:

But I was always encouraged by my parents

to learn, not in a musical household, my

506

:

dad played piano, we had a baby grand,

which he dabbled on but didn't really

507

:

learn, and my mum didn't play anything.

508

:

But I was just encouraged that way.

509

:

And I've done recorders,

piano, clarinet, and singing.

510

:

So those were my main,

511

:

Gareth: multi instrumental.

512

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yeah, and it, I

mean recorder was my first instrument

513

:

until I was about 18 I've had a

gorgeous handmade treble recorder,

514

:

which sounded like a wooden flute.

515

:

Um,

516

:

Gareth: Wow.

517

:

See, I, I did, I did a very similar thing.

518

:

It was kind of the equivalent of

the wider opportunities, isn't it?

519

:

Where every kid in the

class got a recorder.

520

:

I went on to the treble as well.

521

:

Um, but yeah, didn't last that long.

522

:

That's amazing.

523

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Well, yeah,

it's just one of those things.

524

:

It was good.

525

:

But also the clarinet

I had to give up after.

526

:

Grade 5, because it gave

me tendinitis in my wrist.

527

:

Because I don't know, you

know, being a recorder, I'm

528

:

showing you now, but you can't

529

:

see it.

530

:

But you put the recorder on the pad of

your thumb, whereas the clarinet, the

531

:

rest goes on to the side of your thumb.

532

:

And that, basically, I had this massive

lump come up in my wrist, and I had to

533

:

have cortisol injections and things.

534

:

And it's like, Sadly, I had to give

up the clarinet because it just kept

535

:

on doing this, even wearing straps and

things to try and take the weight off.

536

:

But, no, just a varied bit of music

and very much that rotating bit of

537

:

concerts, exams, um, competitions, and

just doing this over and over again.

538

:

Um, I did, thankfully, and when in

hindsight you can look back and go

539

:

thanks to my dad for making sure I was

doing my practice you know it's like do

540

:

you practice because sometimes you're

doing three or four hours practice a

541

:

day and it's just getting through that

542

:

um

543

:

I did some jazz from the ages 13 and 14

d do sort of like traditional:

544

:

Gareth: Right.

545

:

Hang on.

546

:

Rewind.

547

:

Rewind.

548

:

You did some

549

:

John Elleson-Hartley: yes I did some jazz

550

:

Gareth: Can you elaborate on that?

551

:

I mean, was this clarinet?

552

:

Was this

553

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Oh,

554

:

sorry.

555

:

No piano.

556

:

No that was piano jazz recorder.

557

:

Now there's a classic.

558

:

Oh, hello.

559

:

Hmm.

560

:

I, I feel an album coming up.

561

:

Gareth: The, the John

Ellison Hartley trio.

562

:

Oh,

563

:

John Elleson-Hartley: yeah, it was

piano and very much, uh, retired.

564

:

um, jazz band leader.

565

:

He was in his seventies.

566

:

And again, it's that thing of somebody

who lived that era and came up in it

567

:

and to be able to do stride bass piano.

568

:

And I mean, I can't do it very

quickly now, but you know, and your

569

:

hand's just a blur, but the hours

of practice of just doing that.

570

:

Um, and I wish I'd done jazz much

earlier because you're learning chords.

571

:

So through my classical training, you

were learning one note after the other.

572

:

And once I did jazz, I'm like, why wasn't

I taught this, you know, an F minor seven.

573

:

And that's that.

574

:

And I can just, you start seeing

the shape rather than, oh, having

575

:

to work out every note of a chord.

576

:

That's how my brain was working.

577

:

So that was quite a revelation,

578

:

Gareth: And in a way, uh, just going back

to what you're saying about confidence

579

:

that I think with jazz, you're taught

confidence as well because you're, you

580

:

know, you're, you're, you're taught

progressions, but then you have to

581

:

have the confidence to improvise.

582

:

John Elleson-Hartley: And there's

no wrong note in improvisation.

583

:

you

584

:

just move off it.

585

:

Gareth: Yeah.

586

:

John Elleson-Hartley: I love that.

587

:

I love finding a dodgy, dissonant

note and then home a bit.

588

:

And then moving off.

589

:

Because it gives that

emotional ups and downs.

590

:

If everything's just nice,

591

:

Gareth: I think the phrase is

dissonance and harmony, isn't it?

592

:

Um, Beethoven was good at that.

593

:

He'd, he'd go with the dissonance and then

create this harmonious, lovely soundscape.

594

:

Yeah.

595

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yeah.

596

:

I mean, I loved, um, one thing on

that where my publisher for years

597

:

ago, something that stuck with me,

um, when I was composing, instead of

598

:

doing octave strings, which is the

usual thing, you know, people are doing

599

:

this lovely thing, adding like a major

seventh or, um, a flat nine or ninth.

600

:

And just doing that up and down.

601

:

It adds that little colour of something.

602

:

So it's not just boring octave.

603

:

You've got this nice, um, parallel

ninths or sevenths moving.

604

:

Um, things like that.

605

:

Playing with that dissonance in character.

606

:

Gareth: Fabulous.

607

:

So we're up to, trying jazz out.

608

:

What happened from then?

609

:

So we're getting to the

end of your schooling.

610

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yeah, schooling

and into uni, where I actually

611

:

dropped out of uni at the point.

612

:

That just wasn't my bit.

613

:

I went to Birmingham.

614

:

And lovely place, but

it just wasn't for me.

615

:

And back then, there weren't

as many courses like now, where

616

:

I really should have gone to

a, a studio technical course.

617

:

And they had a studio there, but

you were taught how to chop up tape.

618

:

And, and make wonderful,

mysterious sounds.

619

:

And I'm like, well, this

isn't recording music.

620

:

And from my school, it was very much

where you go to uni and you do this.

621

:

And I'd always done music, so it's

just like, okay, you go and do music.

622

:

but I did have a year at the

Conservatoire in Birmingham on piano

623

:

there, which was a great experience.

624

:

And again, you learn more on that and pick

up some tips, which throughout all of my

625

:

training I then passed on because I taught

piano for quite a few years as well.

626

:

So that was really good.

627

:

Gareth: I was going to say,

you know, no matter, uh, what

628

:

decisions you make in life, I

don't think anything's ever wasted.

629

:

So, you know, whatever your, your

experience, whether you think that's

630

:

not for me, you still take that

experience with you, don't you?

631

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yes, and the

people you come across, all those little

632

:

nuggets, as much as I know with, um, Oh.

633

:

I can't remember which, was that

at the conservatory, where again, a

634

:

practicing technique for doing fast

runs, rather than just going da da da

635

:

da da da da da, is to dot it both ways.

636

:

So you go dun da dun da dun da

dun dun, and then do da dun da

637

:

dun da dun, so you're practicing

pairs of notes very quickly.

638

:

And I used to do that and then just

suddenly play it straight fast, you

639

:

know, wow, how did that little tips

like that and I always would be teaching

640

:

that to my pupils and that stemmed

from one person and then I pushed

641

:

it on to many more from there, so

Yeah, what can we learn and pass on?

642

:

Gareth: I'm sensing right

up until that point, you're

643

:

seeing yourself as a musician.

644

:

John Elleson-Hartley: hmm.

645

:

Gareth: Maybe writing music.

646

:

I don't know.

647

:

Were you writing

648

:

as

649

:

John Elleson-Hartley: thought it was

going to be little Mozart here with

650

:

some manuscript and a pen or something

651

:

Gareth: Yeah, so but this

isn't where you are now.

652

:

So what happened in between

your decision to become mixing

653

:

and mastering legend Warlock.

654

:

Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh,

655

:

Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh,

Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh,

656

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Well, that

was getting back home and then

657

:

working at a petrol station for

about three months, which is good.

658

:

That was an experience.

659

:

I think I got some, some sort of

qualification, but, um, no, I started

660

:

at, um, a studio in Worcester,

which again, that's happenstance

661

:

of what, what carries on there.

662

:

It was called the Old Smithy.

663

:

And I met Paul Farrer there, So, I mean,

most people have heard of Paul Farah.

664

:

And again, just looking back of when

I first met him and how he would

665

:

record and I just said, if only I

could work like he works, he's, he's

666

:

brilliant at analyzing what people

want and then putting that into music.

667

:

And just, you know, oh, it needs this,

this, this, and this, put that together.

668

:

Job done.

669

:

And I did sort of 18

months in that studio.

670

:

And because it wasn't as busy

at that point, I could literally

671

:

go in, um, in the mornings.

672

:

What was it?

673

:

Afternoon?

674

:

No, mornings that I spend

into early afternoon and just

675

:

play with stuff and learn.

676

:

And then when there were projects on,

I could just look and then also learn

677

:

about mic technique and positions.

678

:

And also then I did a couple of own

little sessions that came in and just

679

:

invaluable to be around that environment.

680

:

And then also keeping that going, I

went to work at, um, what was called

681

:

Kay's catalog back then in Worcester,

which was a catalog for, you know,

682

:

for clothes and things like that.

683

:

Gareth: Oh right, yeah, the

Kays catalogue, back in the day,

684

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yeah, sort of

like old, old school Amazon where

685

:

basically you're going around picking

things out and then I got to manage

686

:

one of the floors there, after a few

months of that and it's like brilliant.

687

:

And then you go off and thinking,

right, okay, it's time I've raised some

688

:

money and I've bought my JV 2080, um,

synth and a few other bits and bobs.

689

:

I've still got my gear down here.

690

:

My Akai.

691

:

S3000 XL sampler and oh yeah fancy stuff.

692

:

But you had to earn and buy

your equipment at that point.

693

:

Gareth: they've probably got some

listeners drooling at the mention of that.

694

:

John Elleson-Hartley: It's, it's fully

packed out with the extra boards isn't it?

695

:

Gareth: Oh God.

696

:

Yeah,

697

:

John Elleson-Hartley:

composing but how do you do it?

698

:

And I had a friend who, he talked about

the publisher who I then went with,

699

:

and it was on the fifth attempt, I was

about to give up, that I'd sent stuff

700

:

to, and I was like, and also getting

over that being knocked down, and also

701

:

that love of creativity where you're

very naive thinking, oh this is the

702

:

best piece of music ever, and I've put

my heart and soul into it, and oh it's

703

:

going to make me millions, and then

they get, yeah I could do a little tweak

704

:

or this, and yeah, try harder, and oh.

705

:

So

706

:

Gareth: be pretty demoralizing can't it?.

707

:

John Elleson-Hartley: yeah,

but thankfully, he said,

708

:

fine, that was that was good.

709

:

And then I basically went into

a whole load of production music

710

:

and albums and things and working

several years for that, which reading

711

:

plenty of sound on sound, which that

was just invaluable at that point.

712

:

I was also lucky because I taught

Paul White's daughter so editor of

713

:

sound on sound Paul White, and he was

just absolutely amazing and generous.

714

:

And, you know, she did just some

advice and things like that.

715

:

It's, uh, it's, we're back to again,

people who, who do you meet and

716

:

who are the people who can do that?

717

:

And that's where I suppose

I like I was helped.

718

:

And I like to try and help now as well.

719

:

It's like, it's that, I don't know what's

the word, paying it forward sort of thing

720

:

of, yeah.

721

:

And who cares what, you might just be

able to give something to somebody that

722

:

lets them travel off and find their path.

723

:

Gareth: Yeah, yeah, you know, we've,

we've, been in the game a few years now.

724

:

so we know exactly what it feels

like to be in that position where

725

:

you think I am utterly lost.

726

:

I don't know what, quite what to do.

727

:

So to have just a, a little five minute

chat and a friendly conversation for

728

:

people who reach out is, is invaluable.

729

:

You know what it feels like for them.

730

:

John Elleson-Hartley: And they know what

they're talking about, their experience.

731

:

And it was the same thing, um,

because living in Worcester and

732

:

you've got the Malvern area,

there's a lot of musos there.

733

:

And you had David Lowe as well.

734

:

And it's just those people where you

just get little nuggets and generosity.

735

:

Absolutely invaluable.

736

:

Um, and that's, yeah, just developed

as composing, doing everything.

737

:

I mean, I remember doing a, I

did a Latin, it wasn't salsa,

738

:

but it was something else.

739

:

But back then we, I ended up going to

the library to get the CDs out because we

740

:

didn't have the streaming at that point.

741

:

So.

742

:

It's like come back and then learn

all sorts of rhythms and then put

743

:

that album together, do a kid's album,

um, do some dance stuff, do some

744

:

orchestral, really that mixture of music.

745

:

And through that, then my publisher

at around, what is it, about the

746

:

year 2000 said, you know, can

you master this production album?

747

:

And of course the, the

response you give is yes,

748

:

Gareth: So that was

completely out of the blue.

749

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yeah.

750

:

was literally we've got this to do

and you work closely with somebody

751

:

and then that comes out And that

again is oh crap, right go through

752

:

all my old sound on sound magazines.

753

:

Oh, yes learn about this Um, but then

i'd already learned how my gear sounds

754

:

I think I had, um, is it not AKG?

755

:

DT 150 headphones.

756

:

I can't remember the make now,

but they were closed pretty decent

757

:

bass response and everything else.

758

:

And I used those to rely on because my

speakers at the time, I think I was still

759

:

working on my hi fi speakers back then.

760

:

And to be able to use that and

just work probably 10 times as

761

:

hard and do all the extra work

for the money I actually got, but.

762

:

having about six different composers

on that first album and I couldn't

763

:

get re dos of the mixes or anything.

764

:

So I always like trying to see how

can I make this sound better that

765

:

maybe isn't ideal in the first place

and then bringing them all together

766

:

to make it a homogeneous album.

767

:

And then probably after doing At least

one or two a month of that it took

768

:

me about two years before I actually

went, okay, I think I'm a master

769

:

engineer now, I think I've done enough

to be able to say, yes, I can do this.

770

:

Gareth: Yeah, yeah, there's, there's

a little theme there because you're

771

:

saying about composing for a production

library and then coming back and

772

:

saying, uh, no, you need to tweak this.

773

:

Uh, so you have to go through that

time where you're learning, learning,

774

:

learning, in order to get to the

point where you go, I can now do it.

775

:

I'm now,

776

:

confident to do

777

:

John Elleson-Hartley: But I would

say I'm not totally confident now.

778

:

And I think if,

779

:

if you're ever,

780

:

Gareth: Yeah,

781

:

John Elleson-Hartley: say I am the

best and it's like, that's rubbish.

782

:

I believe I'm good at what I do but I'm

always double checking and listening

783

:

and, oh, I wonder if they like it.

784

:

When you send something

back, is the client happy?

785

:

And have you done all the things

or maybe told them something that

786

:

you've spotted that they may fix?

787

:

Have you done your job as the quality

control side of the job as well?

788

:

It's not just about working on the

sound and giving them some feedback.

789

:

Or, um, I always remember one album

had a track in it There's something

790

:

over there, um, on that side.

791

:

Is that deliberate?

792

:

And they went back and they,

they had a fader still up,

793

:

which they hadn't intended.

794

:

So it was just like, oh, thank

heavens you spotted that.

795

:

It's that sort of thing of

working with somebody rather than

796

:

just going, okay, there you go.

797

:

Pay me.

798

:

Gareth: Yeah.

799

:

And I can confirm that as well because

800

:

you've stem mastered one of my EPs and I

can confirm that it's more a collaboration

801

:

working with you than it is a service.

802

:

It's more kind of, right, together

we're going to take this and make it

803

:

sound could possibly be if you left

804

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yeah,

and it's finding your sound.

805

:

I mean, you did a wonderful EP for

that and it's just like how creative

806

:

and it makes you just go, that's

what you want to have that feeling.

807

:

You, yeah, it's, it's having it back.

808

:

So all the hours and work and time

and money of your life getting to

809

:

where you are is invested in this.

810

:

And then you're going to somebody

who you're going to trust.

811

:

And that again is a leap of faith

because it's like, well, I could do

812

:

it myself, but to hand it over to

somebody who's then going to come

813

:

back, that's quite nerve wracking.

814

:

So that's what I then feel.

815

:

So I'm handing it back.

816

:

And then for you to go, Oh, oh,

that, that I really like that.

817

:

Or if it's a question of, Ooh, I

like it, but there's just a little

818

:

bit too bright or something.

819

:

Oh, that's your personal preference.

820

:

Okay.

821

:

Lovely.

822

:

We can tweak this.

823

:

How's this now?

824

:

Oh, lovely.

825

:

Happy with

826

:

that.

827

:

Brilliant.

828

:

That's

829

:

Gareth: And I think that what you're

saying is, is be confident with that,

830

:

because, um, I think a lot of people

might feel a bit reluctant to point

831

:

out to a mixing mastering engineer.

832

:

Actually, I don't like that

bit because what do they know?

833

:

You know?

834

:

So what you're saying

is it's, that's okay.

835

:

It's a two way conversation.

836

:

If you have a preference for something

in particular, then you should say so.

837

:

You should speak up.

838

:

John Elleson-Hartley: Yes.

839

:

It is a service.

840

:

And as much as hopefully you're

working with somebody who is a good

841

:

master engineer and they know, but

also you're there to guide the client.

842

:

Now, if the client has a particular

liking to something that's really bright

843

:

or really dark, that's their choice.

844

:

And you can talk with them.

845

:

You might get, I've only done it

once I think in my career, where I

846

:

say, well I can't do this, because I

wouldn't be happy with releasing that.

847

:

And that's where you just have to

be honest and say, clean slate you

848

:

know, don't take any money, job done,

thank you very much and good luck.

849

:

Um, but, that's, that's

a personal thing as well.

850

:

Whether that's the right thing for

me to have done, I have no idea.

851

:

But yeah, everybody's got their own thing.

852

:

And then you're back to again, if you

know what the sound should be like

853

:

that you want, and if the mastering

person hasn't done it for you, then

854

:

tell them you're paying for it.

855

:

Gareth: absolutely.

856

:

Yeah.

857

:

That's cracking.

858

:

Uh, so John.

859

:

I ask all of my guests to leave

an item and a piece of advice in

860

:

the music room for others to find.

861

:

So what would you like to start

with, your item or your advice?

862

:

John Elleson-Hartley: The item is earplugs

and multiple pairs of earplugs so you have

863

:

them everywhere just in case wherever you

are to protect your hearing which I know

864

:

anybody who knows me if you're out at an

event even at a talking event whatever

865

:

I've you're generally up to like 85 to 90

decibels at least and maybe above that.

866

:

Even being on the tube in London, any

environment, you're, you're anywhere

867

:

into 90 to the hundred decibels

and you can't recover your hearing.

868

:

And if you want to work for as long

as possible, we, it deteriorates

869

:

over time anyway, naturally.

870

:

So to keep it as good as

possible, um, always have them.

871

:

I must give you a link actually.

872

:

I think it was, was it helpful

hearing or something where

873

:

brand of molded earplugs, ACS.

874

:

They cost about 140 or something,

but there's a service where if you

875

:

prove that you work in the industry,

you can get, it's about 50 pounds.

876

:

So you get an ear test

877

:

and get them moulded.

878

:

So things like that, there's, yeah, if you

want to look after it and I haven't used

879

:

my ACS ones for about 10 years because I

shoved them through the washing machine

880

:

and that sort of knackered them after 10

years of use, but yeah, getting even the

881

:

little silicon ones, just shove them in,

and keep your hearing as good as possible.

882

:

Gareth: Absolutely brilliant item,

that's going in the music room.

883

:

So what advice would you like to leave?

884

:

Wow.

885

:

John Elleson-Hartley: do, but it's

ultimately about the people, and

886

:

surrounding yourself with good people, uh,

removing the not good people, because it's

887

:

toxic, and it's very much that old thing

of you become the people who surround

888

:

you, you know, who you're with, you pick

up all these habits, it's a bit like when

889

:

you grow up as a child, you know, you get

influenced by the bad person or something

890

:

like that and pick up little things.

891

:

So yeah, when you're at events,

and in work, but also in personal

892

:

life, who do you want to be?

893

:

And who can challenge us?

894

:

What who can we learn from?

895

:

And who can we share with?

896

:

That'd be my point.

897

:

Gareth: Amazing.

898

:

Amazing.

899

:

That goes into the Music Room.

900

:

I hope listeners benefit

from, uh, those two things.

901

:

John Elleson-Hartley.

902

:

It has been wonderful chatting with you.

903

:

Thanks for joining me in the Music Room.

904

:

John Elleson-Hartley:

Thank you so much, Gareth.

905

:

Absolute joy.

906

:

Brilliant.

907

:

Thank you.

908

:

Gareth: Thanks for listening to

the Music Room podcast today.

909

:

If you'd like to know more about the

show or the community that surrounds

910

:

it, head to music room.community.

911

:

The link is in the show notes.

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About the Podcast

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The Music Room
Personal stories of inspiration from music industry professionals.

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About your host

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Gareth Davies

Composer of music, producer of podcasts. Latest TV series: Toad & Friends (Warner Bros. Discovery). Current podcasts include The Music Room and Podcasting People.

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D
Danny Brown $5
Saw your excellent post on Facebook, and happy to become a supporter!
A
Anonymous £1
Thanks for making this podcast! I appreciate all the advice and useful items that guests leave, it’s helped me think about how I go about things.